Friday, December 11, 2009
Question of the Week (12/11/09)
Using evidence from the text discuss the interrelationship of two of the following motifs in Malory's work: courtly love, married love, the knightly vow of friendship, fealty, revenge, the ravishing of maidens, the murder of knights, Christian devotion, diabolism. Post and respond to a classmates' response by Sunday. Don't forget your adaptations are due Monday. Enjoy your weekend.
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Something that has interested me very much about the tales is the ongoing balance between the married love that Guinevere has for Arthur, and the courtly love between Lancelot and Guinevere. I think that there is an extremely strong interrelationship between these two motifs - it's almost as if one balances out the other. For example, Guinevere loves Arthur very much in a "married love" sense, which for a long time prevents the courtly love between her and Lancelot (Lancelot's sense of loyalty to Arthur and the knightly code also has an effect on this). However, as Lancelot and Guinevere's courtly love grows, the married love between her and Arthur can't be as strong. The way I think of it is as an hourglass - there's only a certain amount of sand in it, but it can be divided up between the two in any way. The more "sand" in the married love section, the less "sand" there is in the courtly love section. Yay for analogies! Since no one has posted yet, I can't exactly respond to a classmate's post. Hurry up party people.
ReplyDeleteIn Le Morte d'Arthur married love seems to be more of a political tie, while courtly love is about true romance. One example of this would be Queen Guinevere and King Arthur. Queen Guinevere truly loves Lancelot; however, she is married to King Arthur. One thing about this marriage is no one says no to the king if he wants to marry someone. Therefore, while it may have been beneficial for Guinevere to marry Arthur, she ultimately had no choice in the matter. Meanwhile, she is in love with Lancelot despite her marriage. This is by far the best example of the difference between courtly love and married love.
ReplyDeleteAnother example is, one knight (can't remember his name or find it but I know it's there) falls in love with a lady, but is separated and once out of sight out of mind. He marries another but remembers on his wedding night that he is in love with another lady. He leaves his wife to be with this other lady. This goes to show that marriage is not a strong bond between man and woman, but courtly love can be.
Megan, I like how you cited the tale of Tristram (that's his name by the way) - I think it really shows how courtly love can be much more powerful than married love. To leave someone on your wedding night, you must be extremely more in love with someone else!
ReplyDeletein response to Scott:
ReplyDeleteThat is a very good analogy, although I disagree. I do not think that love can be classified as an amount. In my opinion you can have an endless amount of love for two people. Just because you being to love someone more does not mean in anyway that you would love another less. Now, perhaps you meant that the more the woman loves her courtly lover, the less she loves her husband in the sense that the more she realizes what love is the less she feels for her true husband.
A continuation on mine: I believe the knight who got married and left her was Sir Tristam and he was in love with Iseult.
Thanks for the name Scotty. Do you remember the name of the woman he married?
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree with everything that has been said so far, I also think that in some of these tales love is treated lightly and sometimes it seems like love is just a detail that doesn't really need to be worried about. For example in the very first tale, Merlin's tale, when Uther falls in love with Igraine he comes to her at night disguised as her husband. Later, when Igraine's husband was killed (practically because of Uther) and Igraine finds out that she became pregnant because of King Uther, she doesn't seem to be sad or disturbed in the least bit. In this story, although there is courtly love and married love, there really doesn't seem to be much of a difference, and the fact that everyone is kind of cheating on everyone doesn't seem to worry the main characters. I feel like the first tale is a very characteristic tale in the sense that it contains many of the motifs mentioned above.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Megan:
I agree that the courtly love between Guinevere and Lancelot is the best example of courtly love and the love between Guinevere and Arthur is the best example of married love. I think this could have been on purpose, since King Arthur is the main character in many ways of these stories, so his relationship with his wife and his wife's relationship with another knight really had to be a perfect example of married and courtly love.
It can be noted in the tale the “Poison Apple” that there is an interrelationship between courtly love, married love and the knightly vow of friendship. Queen Gwynevere is accused of poisoning an apple, killing Sir Patrise. The apple was supposed to be for Sir Gawain, poisoned by Sir Pynel. King Arthur is conflicted when he wants to defend his Queen. He tells his court “because I am your sovereign I may not defend my queen” (435). He must remain loyal to his knights. However, he subsequently must also show loyalty to his wife. He expresses his married love, when he proclaims his belief that she is innocent, and requests that others come forward to protect her (p.435). Revenge is yet another motif weaved into this tale. The whole murder was based off of revenge, with Sir Pynol, the actual murderer, “whose cousin Sir Lamerok died at the hands of Sir Gawain, and whos death he wished to avenge” (434). It is also widely known that Sir Madore is prophesized to kill King Arthur at some point, and has bitter feelings toward King Arthur. It is no surprise that it is Sir Madore who harbors resentment towards Arthur carries, out the task of jousting to prove Queen Gwynevere’s guilt as it is avenging his cousin, Sir Patrise’s death (434). The object itself, the poison apple seems to be the actual motif in this tale. I perceive it to represent Queen Gwynevere who seems to be a beautiful woman and wife to King Arthur (married love) but is ultimately cheating on him with Sir Launcelot (courtly love), and the overall task of the apple is to avenge Lamerok’s death, and Sir Madore takes the opportunity for revenge. In response to Gaia, I liked your point about Uther and Igraine. However, the shame of having a boring a bastard son may have overshadowed the worries of love at that time. It was so important to be of legitamate noble birth. and wow..i'm the 4th person to write...what is the world coming to? ha
ReplyDeleteTwo of these motifs, the knightly vow of friendship and the murder of knights, play a huge role in the underlying themes of Malory's Le Morte D'arthur. The knightly vow of friendship is a complicated motif, and is recurring throughout every story. In some stories, knights vow to be friends after discovering that they are related to one another. Other times, it is because one has shown outstanding chivalry to the other. More often than not, knights vow to be friends after jousting one another and deciding that, instead of killing one another, they should forever be friends. I find this really strange, compared to the other cases in which after a joust, the knight that loses is either killed or forced to swear allegiance to a different king. It seems that in all of these tales, knights are killed and then avenged by their relatives. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to "swearing to be friends" other than discovering some sort of kinship or common allegiance (for example, Sir Lancelot and Sir Neroveus fight and discover that Sir Lancelot had knighted Sir Neroveus, so they swear to be friends). These two motifs play a large role in the underlying theme of chivalry in each tale (i know "chivalry" isn't a theme, but it helps prove my point).
ReplyDeleteIn response to Megan:
ReplyDeleteI agree that courtly love is more about romance than politics, but it seems so unrealistic that it almost isn't relatable. Lancelot fell in love with Gwynevere at first sight-but he didn't even know anything about her. He'd never even spoken to her. It's romantic, but is it really love? Their courtly love makes it seem like she's Arthur's prisoner, but that may not really be the case.
Since no one has mentioned this yet, I will talk about the relationship between the knightly vow of friendship and the murder of knights. I find this one to be the most humorous, for reasons that we've touched on many times in class. There have been numorous times where knights have challenged each other, fought for hours, and ended either becoming eternal brothers or killing each other (I think I had a formula for this on last week's blog). In every story we read this happens. An example is from the latest story we read, Launcelot and Elaine. After Launcelot recovers from his madness, he takes the name of Le Shyvalere Mafete, the knight who has trespassed. He holds a tournament in his castle and says any knight who can defeat him will win a glorious prize. Sir Percivale of the Round Table takes his challenge and they end up fighting for several hours, exchange names, and become friends. I think the reason that Malory uses this motif so often is to demonstrate how chivalrous the knights in that time were. Another example is when Sir Tristram and Sir Palomides fight. Sir Palomides refuses to fight Sir Tristram until Tristram has the proper armor, even though he'd love to kill him. In the tale of Sir Gareth, Sir Gareth will fight the Red Knight at noon when he is his strongest, even though he could wait. They will take any chance they can to prove themselves worthy knights, but sometimes end up murdering each other in the process.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Megan:
I completely agree with you about the Lancelot and Guinevere example, it is a perfect analogy for the married and courtly love interrelationship. I also agree that with you that married love seems to be more of a political tie than true love. Another example of this is when King Mark must have Iseult for his pride, he doesn't actually love her he just wants to anger Sir Tristram.
woops I didn't refresh the page before you posted your comment Sasha... dang
ReplyDeleteRevenge and the murder of knights are very closely related in a great number of the stories we have read so far. In many instances one knight will challenge another to duel because the challenged knight had earlier killed the challenging knight's brother, father, or another member of their kin. A recent example of this from the text is that of Sir Pynol, in the tale "Poison Apple," who tried to poison Sir Gawain because “[Sir Pynol's] cousin Sir Lamerok died at the hands of Sir Gawain,” (434.)Revenge and the murder of knights can also be seen in earlier chapters, for example when Morgan La Fay attempted to murder Aurthur to avenge her mother, when So basically, the relationship of revenge and the murder of knights is that to obtain revenge, knights murder (often in combat) other knights. It seems that to do this was considered a chivalrous act. I can't find it in the book because it was a relatively small part of a story I don't remember the name of, but there was one episode where a knight said that he did not want to challenge a knight he met, but after learning his name and realizing he was the same knight that had killed his brother, said that he now must challenge him, even though he still did not want to.
ReplyDeleteIn Malory's work, courtly love and marriage are often shown as two ends of the spectrum, but sometimes there are exceptions. Courtly love, such as between Tristram and Iseult, and Guinevere and Launcelot, is idealized, presented as an exhilarating, forbidden passion between two soulmates. On the large part, marriage is shown to be the opposite, as marriages are often made to strengthen political alliances and not for love, such as between Arthur and Guinevere, and King Mark and Iseult. However, sometimes there is genuine love between married couples, such as between Sir Gareth and Lady Lyonesse. Also, Guinevere and Arthur do love each other, but in a rather chaste way that cannot compete with the growing passion between her and Launcelot.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Scott:
I completely agree with you "hourglass" analogy. While their often is love in marriage, courtly love will eventually defeat it in Malory's work. In a world where arranged marriages were the norm, it must have been liberating for members of the nobility to partake in extramarital affairs. However, this was also a time of great piety, and I wonder how those involved in courtly love justified it in a religious sense, or maybe they just didn't care about their religious beliefs as much as we thought they did.
In response to Clark:
ReplyDeleteI agree that Malory decided to put in all the parts about knights becoming life long friends after fighting "to demonstrate how chivalrous the knights in that time were." I hadn't thought about it before though, because I rarely think of Malory as having purpose for any of the weird things he writes. I still think it is strange though, that sometimes after they are defeated in a challenge that was meant to avenge the killing of a family member, they will still decide to become friends. I suppose though, that being able to forgive and become friends with an such an enemy shows even more chivalrous quality then befriending a regular opponent.
I think that there is an interesting relationship in the stories between fealty and revenge. It is interesting that while all the knights in Briton have sworn fealty to King Arthur, in practice, especially where it relates to revenge, the knights don't seem to honor their allegiance. For example, the fact that King Mark has sworn fealty to King Arthur doesn't stop Mark from plotting his revenge on Tristram, who has also sworn fealty to Arthur. There are many additional examples of when King Arthur's knights forget their oaths of fealty when taking revenge on members of their own order, such as when Knights traveling the countryside attack Sir Kay because he is weak, or when Sir Gaheris, seeking revenge on Sir Pellinore, kills Arthur's own sister Morgause. It seems from these examples either that knights don't value their oaths of fealty much, or that knights feel that the need for revenge supersedes all else.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mariya,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that revenge and murder are often correlated. Reading your post made me wonder how knights kept track of who they should take revenge on. Since most of British nobility seems to be related, a knight would have had to make some interesting decisions about who to avenge.
Throughout La Morte d'Arthur, you can see a difference between courtly love and married love. Married love seems to be for politics while courtly love is true love and is romantic. But there are limits to it, especially between Guenevere and Lancelot since he is loyal to King Arthur. But in this book, it seems possible that you can do anything if you're in love. As we learned before, it seems like a disease that you have no control over. Anything that happens while you're in love is completely acceptable. Tristram also falls in love with someone, but forgets her and marries someone else though he doesn't really love her.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Aaron:
I think that's an interesting thought on fealty versus revenge. It does seem as though personal revenge can justify anything. It sounds like it's against the chivalric code, but I'm not sure if it really is. It's kind of related to not being loyal to your lord, which is the case with Mark and Tristram.
The easiest contrast to see in Le Mort D'Arthur is the difference between courtly love and married love. Mainly that the two are opposites of one another. Courtly love is passionate and interesting. It is adulterous and has an element of danger. courtly love is everything that makes love interesting and that is why Guinevere praises it in her letter to Isuelt saying that it is the stronger of loves.
ReplyDeleteMarried love is boring and political. Very little is displayed about passion in married love. It is more of a sibling like relationship. I think that the main purpose of married love in the Morte is to provide a foil against which to play out the drama of courtly love.
I wonder what the actual perception of love was at the time that La Morte was written. In the text people do not seem to worried about courtly love- indeed they idealize it. Arthur is aware that Lancelot loves Guievere, everyone knows about Tristram and Isuelt. Quite a few times knights publicly take paramours. Yet,men are jealous creatures. I cannot imagine that kings and princes too kindly to this sharing of partners.
In response to Aaron:
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that there is an interesting disconnect between the oaths that the knights swear and their actions. I always thought that oaths of fealty were sacred in medieval times and the compliance of all parties is what kept the feudal system running. Obviously this is not the case in the tales. It is not only the bad knights that break their oath. Even neutral or good Knights of the Round Table Fight each other.I think this tells us about what kind of fellowship the Round Table really is. I think that in the levels of importance for a knight there will always be his lady, then himself, then his close kinsmen and only then the loose association that is the Round Table. They are not a closely knit group by any standards given that members fight each other relatively often and some strong grudges are evident between members.
There are similarities between courtly love and married love, but the feelings, motivations, and intentions are different. Guinevere loves her husband King Arthur, but she also loves Sir Lancelot. Merlin knew that Guinevere was destined to love Lancelot even if she married King
ReplyDeleteArthur -
[merlin: is there already a lady who has captured your heart?
arthur: There is...the incomparably innocent and beautiful Guinevere. merlin: Guinevere is destined to love sir lancelot, and he her, and many disasters will result from their love.] - p. 57
I think Guinevere's love for each man is real, but different. She respects her husband and is honored to be his queen, and the bond of marriage and royalty makes their relationship strong, but not as passionate as the love between Lancelot and Guinevere, which is intense and secretive.
in response to Nick:
I agree that the drama of courtly love in these stories in enhanced by the married love. I don't think that married love is necessarily boring and political or that it's more like siblng love - In the Poison Apple (my tale adaptation pick) Guinevere's life is at stake and Arthur is devastated at the thought of losing his queen, and I think it wasn't just for political reasons.
Throughout the tales that we have read, i think me most interesting topic is the difference between courtly love and married love. Since the very begining of the book, Malory made it clear that married love is more of a status symbol than an actual expression of love. For instance in Tristrams stories, Tristram's uncle king mark demands to marry the fair Iseult purrely becasue she is a bequtiful princess. Their love is superficial, however the love that she shares with Tristram is pure and true. Another example of married love as a political or status statement is the marriage between Arthur and Gwynavere. Their marrige is simply a status symbol however the love that she shares with Lancelot, although forbidden is much more purre and true. I think the emphasis on married love is that it is not as important and not as true as courtly love.
ReplyDeleteIn rsponse to Meagan: I think you hit the nail on the head with your response. I like that you mentioned the realtionship between Arthur and Gwynavere as being not as true as the realtionship between Lancelot and Gwynavere.