- To what extent does the Wife's tale seem appropriate to her character as it has been depicted?
- Does the tale reveal new or unexpected aspects of her character? Does it illuminate any of the very different relationships that she has experienced in marriage?
- The moral of the tale seems to confirm her argument in the "Prologue," that wives should have authority over their husbands, but the proof of the moral seems to come through magic. Are we to take the story at face value, or is it, in the truest sense, a "fairy tale"? How does this reflect on the Wife's character and opinions?
- Does Chaucer in this way represent the Wife as seeing herself as the "loathly lady" waiting for some loving husband to unlock the beauty inside her?
Post by Monday 10/12 for full credit. Don't forget to read the summoner's and merchant's tales, complete the WofB worksheet and finish your original prologue due 10/13. Enjoy your long weekend.
In response to the third question, I don't think that the Wife of Bath's story should be taken as a fairy tale. Even though the moral of her tale seemed to come through magic, as we saw in the prologue, she always managed to have authority over her husbands without using magic. I believe her story is supposed to be interpreted in a literal sense. When the old lady asks the knight whether he would rather have her stay old but loyal, or have her become young and very attractive (so much so that all the knight's friends would come to sleep with her), the knight lets the old lady choose. By doing this, the knight has given the authority to the old lady, and therefor is rewarded with young beauty. The wife of bath in this way is saying that if men give their wives the authority, they will be recompensed with "youthfulness" in bed and their relationship will be better in general.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the fourth question, I don't think that the wife sees herself as a "loathly lady." Through the whole tale she seems self confident but also self aware. She knows that she is no longer as beautiful as she once was, but she is confident in her sexual charm. In such as male centric world it takes a lot of confidence in one's self and charm to openly brag to a group of (disaproving) strangers about how you control and extort your husbands constantly.I would say rather that the Wife is giving a side not to her story and saying that she understands that not all women can have her pull. She is encouraging men to see beyond appearances since, as she has proven, the most atractive women are usually not the most faithful or respectful.
ReplyDeleteIn response:
ReplyDeleteI disagree that the Wife of Bath's tale is to be taken literally. To me it seems more like a fairytale or wishful thinking because of the time that the story is from. To us now this tale is on level ground with any other moral story, such as the pardoner's. However, in Chaucer's time the Wife's ideas were so outrageous and disconnected from an agreed upon Church value that there was no comparison between the two stories. The Wife is telling this as a real fairy tale including unrealistic quests and shape shifting hags because she knows that this story is not possible in reality.
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ReplyDeleteIn response to the fourth question:
ReplyDeleteWhen the Wife of Bath ends her story with the magical "transformation" of the old hag into a beautiful woman, her purpose is not entertainment. This isn't a fairy tale that could never happen in real life, she is making the point that you shouldn't marry a woman because she is beautiful. If you marry for looks your relationship will be weak and will not last, but if you marry someone you truly love and respect, not only will your relationship flourish, you will come to see the beauty in them as well. This is what the wife of bath means by the old woman's transformation. The knight realizes that it is best to be with someone he can trust and respect, and by accepting this, he comes to see that the old woman is beautiful after all. The moral deals with men looking for a woman who is their equal, and their companion, not their property. The wife of bath suggests that because women are the equals of men, a woman who is snubbed or talked down to by her husband will cheat on him as a way of getting revenge and showing that she is not helpless. The only way for a man to prevent this is to make his wife his equal in all things.
First of all, nice response Joe! I'll answer the first question:
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the Wife of Bath's tale, I wasn't sure whether it really reflected her character, or if it was more a reflection of what the character wanted. In the prologue it says that she has had five husbands, which would indicate that she feels as though men are shallow and unfair (since she can't keep one!). Not only that, but she states that while she enjoys marriage and feels that it is a good thing, men rarely give women what they really want in marriage (which we find out later is mastery over their husbands). I don't necessarily think that the tale reflects the Wife's personality, but rather it is what she wishes would happen to her. The tale seems very appropriate to the character (as many of the tales have been so far) because it deals with man's dominance over women. The Wife of Bath believes that men should not be dominant over women, and this value is brought out in many cases throughout the tale. One example is when the knight returns to the queen and tells her what women really want. At that point, the queen has complete control over whether the knight, a man, should live or die.
In response to Gaia, I agree in that the Wife of Bath really meant for her story to be taken seriously. Although her final point was illustrated by means of a metaphor, I feel like for a group of men that would be the way to most lucidly illustrate her point that if men are kind and equal with their wives, their love life and marriage in general will be ameliorated.
mine was actually in response to the third question..
ReplyDeleteIn response to Scott:
One of the main points that the wife of bath makes during her prologue and story is that men should let their wives make important decisions for them. This is evident by the fact that the king in the story allows his wife the queen to preside over the Knight's fate, and then later the knight asks the old woman to choose the life that she thinks will be better for him. In both of these cases, turning the choice over to a woman led to a better outcome than would have come to pass before. If the king had chosen whether the knight lived or died, he either would have been killed, or he would have been released without learning anything. Also if the knight had chosen between beauty or wisdom, he would have only had one, but because he let the woman decide, he was able to have them both. This clearly illustrates the WoB's point that tough choices are best left to women.
In response to Joe:
ReplyDeleteI really agree with what you said that since the knight trusted the old woman, looked deeper into her and didn't just look at her superficially, he got ended up having the best outcome. In a way, the Wife of Bath probably thought this would be the ideal way to have equality between husbands and wives, but since she wasn't able to find a man that looked at her this way, she had to take action and force the man to respect her. This obviously didn't give the eternal happiness that we assumed the knight and old lady had, but that didn't seem to matter too much to the Wife of Bath (especially by the 5th husband).
In response to the first question:
ReplyDeleteI had the same reaction as Scott after I read the wife of bath's tale, was this a reflection of her character or of what she wanted? It did seem like an odd tale for the WofB to tell. After thinking about it, I find I have a better understanding of the story. The meaning is complex and many people have already touched in it. In a nutshell, the reason that Chaucer put this story in was to show how women can have power as well as men; this power needs to be shared. All of the stories told before the WofB's tale were male focused and they never treated women with any respect. The WofB was probably offended by all of this and wanted to make the point that women need to be seen as equals- not people who will automatically jump into bed with you at your command. The question says how Chaucer sometimes creates a dramatic motivation for the pilgrim's tales. This is what happened for the WofB, although it occured more gradually.
In response to Nick:
I do think at the time the story could be perceived as a fairy tale but this is the antithesis of the WofB's point- she wants the idea that women can be equal to men to be more common. People back then thought it was so ridiculous that this idea could be reality and I think that the WofB hopes her story will change the opinions of many the males she is with on the pilgrimage. She probably also hopes that the rest of the stories the pilgrims tell will be revere women more and hers serves as an example.
In response to number one:
ReplyDeleteI think that the Wife of Bath's tale was very well chosen to reflect her character. The general prologue talks about how the wife of bath has traveled all over Europe and to Asia many times, and about her frequent marriages. In the middle ages, such excessive traveling was very uncommon, and even today marrying 5 people is enough to get your story told in the New York Times (http://5marry.notlong.com ). The Wife of Bath's behaviors described in the general prologue firmly establish that she has a very liberal and progressive mindset.
The Wife of Bath's tale emphasizes the need for women to have a degree of power over their relationship with men. This moral was just as progressive in the middle ages as the Wife of Bath's travels and marriages were. I think that this progressive moral is very appropriate for and corresponds to the Wife of Bath's progressive character.
In response to Clark:
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that the Wife of Bath's tale was probably as much as a reaction to the Miller's and Reeve's tales as the Summoner's tale was to the Friar's tale. I think that just as the Friar insulted the Summoner by calling all summoners greedy extortionists, the Miller insulted the Wife of Bath by invoking what were probably standard medieval style stereotypes of women. To the Wife of Bath's credit, however, unlike the Summoner who just tried to escalate his conflict with the Friar, the Wife of Bath sought a compromise between males and females instead of some sort of petty victory.
Fourth Question:
ReplyDeleteI don't think the Wife of Bath really sees herself as someone who needs a man to love her whether she was beautiful or ugly. She seems to be much more independent. I believe her point is that what every women truly wants is someone to love her for who she is not what she looks like. So in a way she is a "loathly lady" because she knows she isn't as beautiful as she was before and still wants someone to be with; however, the Wife of Bath seems so far above really needing a man in her life (because she goes through marriages so fast). The story is more of her wishful thinking that maybe someday she will find the man that she loves and loves her, but I don't think she is waiting and focusing on someone falling in lover with her despite the fact she is getting old.
The Wife of Baths story is one of the first that represents her character. So even though she appears to be strong, there is definitely a possibility that she is a "loathly lady" because that is what her story is based around.
In response to Joe:
ReplyDeleteI agree that the only way to make a marriage work is to find someone who you love and respect for who they are not what they are. Also, marriage should be about equality between the man and the wife. In other words, the husband should not have all the power, but neither should the wife.
I also agree with those who have said that the Wife of Bath meant for her story to be taken seriously. My impression was this story really represented what she believed in. Women having dominance over males. There are many examples of this in the tale. As Joe said, when the queen has complete control over whether the knight lives or dies. Also, that you should love someone for more then just looks i.e the knight falling in love with the ugly woman.
In response to the 1st question:
ReplyDeleteI think the Wife of Bath's tale is very appropriate to her character, as much of her prologue describes how she controls her five successive husbands with a combination of blackmail, false accusations, and sexual power, and her tale is all about how the thing women want most is to have control over men. Also, in her tale, the old hag has an enormous amount of power over the knight, as she forces him to marry her, which is not the case in many of the other tales, in which the men have most of the power, and the women are not treated very respectfully. When the knight lets her choose which appearance she wants, she becomes the best qualities of both, possibly showing how she believes that if men let women have power, they will be more loyal, and the relationship between the two sexes will be better for both partners.
In response to Aaron:
I completely agree with you in saying the Wife of Bath was a very progressive, outside of the box thinker for her time. I get the impression that in the middle ages, while many women resented the fact that men had all the power, most of them didn't act on their discontent by telling tales such as the Wife of Bath's and embarking on long and perilous journeys. The Wife of Bath is an exception to this, and she makes her disdain of normal medieval society very clear.
In response to the first question:
ReplyDeleteI think that the story that the Wife of Bath tells relates to her own life and her experiences very directly. She was able to gain complete control over more than one of her five husbands and she believes that in order to have a successful and happy marriage the women must be in control (and the story she tells about the young night supports this believe). In her story the ultimately wise old women knows that women want control over their men and that old lady in her story seems to be an illustration of the Wife of Bath herself.
and in response to Clark:
ReplyDeleteI agree with the point that all the other stories before the Wife of Bath's were completely male focused and all the women seemed to be getting screwed (in more than one sense of the word) throughout these stories. I think that this story is a good way for Chaucer to add a womans perspective on things in this particular time period. Without this story and prologue there would be no stories that show how women felt and that would make the canterbury tales an unfair illustration of the era.
In response to the fourth question:
ReplyDeleteI think the idea of the story was that you should marry someone based on their character, not just by their looks. This is what the Wife of Bath thinks every woman wants, or should want. She is still looking for a person to marry though she admits that she's aging and is not as beautiful as she used to be. Though a person may be extremely good-looking in their youth, they will eventually become old and lose their beauty. To have a lasting relationship, you should marry someone you love and respect, and who loves and respects you as well as a person who has good character. If any of these things are lacking, the relationship will eventually break. She also wants independence in a relationship. She doesn't want a man controlling her every move, which is why she tried to get her husbands to give her money by blackmailing and sweet-talking them. I think her story is not so much her personal belief, seeing the number of people she's married, but what she wants to achieve. Though she's older and not as beautiful, she wants to find someone who truly loves her and respects her.
In response to Keegan:
I agree, I think this story shows women will be more loyal and be better wives if they are given independence. She thinks that if men and women share the power in a marriage, they will both be happier and have a stronger relationship than couples where one person has all the power.
The Wife of Bath’s tale is an exemplum which is appropriate to her character. It supports the prologue’s lengthy depiction of the wife’s complex and often paradoxical character and provocative ideologies. The tale highlights her character, often revealed through dialectical tensions between experiential wisdom and authority, as well as, lively and argumentative rhetoric expressing her views of marriage and the obtainment of power.
ReplyDeleteIn the tale, the Wife of Bath weaves the story of a Knight who rapes an innocent maiden an act afforded by his patriarchal power. To save his life he must answer the question of what women desire. With the wisdom of the old hag he relates to the queen what women most desire is to be in charge of their husbands and lovers. In the end his true happiness is realized only when he allows his spouse to have autonomy and choice. Here we see how the tale in providing an answer to the question of "What do women most desire?" exemplifies the Wife of Bath’s strong belief in the importance of a women’s marital sovereignty the husband.
Further it is a tale, which depicts the “magical” transformation (the old hag into a beautiful and faithful maiden) of its characters, which to a great extent parallel the personal and ideological transformation (at least in part) of the Wife of Bath in her existing real medieval world. She gains insight that her earlier methods using sexual charm and sexual manipulation which were ultimately utilized by her fifth husband on her later may not achieve marital stability. In the end the wife becomes softer with age, shows more depth of character and actually loves her fifth husband and like the knight and the transformed hag begins to find marital happiness after she too is given choices and achieves self determination in her marriage.
I disagree with Gaia, in that the tale is a fairy tale, written by both Chaucer and other writers of the time. However the meaning of the fairytale as it relates to the Woman of Bath's story; that women need a certain sovereignty in their marriage, reflected by the things she wrote (equality) had literal meaning in the time.
In response to the first and third questions:
ReplyDeleteI think that the Wife's tale is definitely an exemplum, and displays her character in all honesty. She is a feminist, and her tale shows highlights these qualities. Although she may seem over the top, I think that this is just her way of gaining some sort of validation with her story. She needs to be very convinced of her own ideals if she is going to preach them to others. I think that her tale is fully appropriate to her character. It seems that the Wife of Bath is the first character in Chaucer's tales that isn't hypocritical or made fun of- her tale is true to her beliefs. Although her tale is resolved through magic, I don't think that the moral of the story changes all that much. In greek, the term of a mechanism used for a sudden resolve is deus ex machina- but I don't think that the magic resolves her moral. The magic really only makes a happy ending to the story. I don't think that her tale will ever be taken as seriously because of her use of magic, but because her character traits are so strong, I think that her point will still be made.
(sorry i answered two questions)
ReplyDeletein response to megan:
i completely agree with what you are saying. I don't think that the Wife of Bath is looking specifically for another husband- I think she's looking for someone to love her for who she really is. Her beauty is gone- but her personality isn't. She's still the firecracker she was when she was young, and I think she's hoping that someone will love her for that. However, I disagree that she doesn't need a man in her life. I get the feeling that she defines herself by what men she marries and who she is with. Although she is very independent and loves to control men, I think that she defines her character by which men she controls and how she "captures" them. Without men, her preachings wouldn't really be vaild.
In response to Nick:
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree that the Wife's tale wouldn't be taken literally. For women hearing that tale, I think that it would have been very liberating and very serious for them. The Pardoner even interjects during her prologue to tell her that her speech has made him reconsider his marriage. Even though her story uses magic to create a happy ending, her character isn't fake. She is very convinced of her own arguments, and people have to respect her for that. Even though her ideas were way off the map considering what rights women had back then, discounting her story altogether would be a mistake. Chaucer obviously didn't think that throwing her story away because it didn't have face value was the right thing to do.
First question:
ReplyDeleteI think the tale that the Wife of Bath tells accurately depicts her character and her personality. She tells a stroy about a woman haveing total control over a man. In this story the young Knight has one year to find out what women really want from a man and from a relationship. After a year the Knight finally discovers that all a woman wants is control over her husband or male counterpart. This story describes almost exactly what the Wife of Baath wants, she wants to be able to have as many husbands as she wants and always have control. She wants to be able to have freedom with her sexuality and and with her gender. This story is a good depictiion of what kind of character the wife of Baath is.
In response to Keegan:
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you are saying that the story that she tells depicts what she is like very well. It is a story full of sexual tension, and woman dominating men. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the old hag making the knight marry her, this really shows the idea of woman dominating men and how that is all the women really want.
The Wife of Bath's tale is a pretty good example of her own personal life story, where the wife of bath herself is playing her life through the old hag and dealing with the nobel knight in a way that she has wanted to deal with men since she was young (even if that hasn't happened and the men dominated her in her last two marriages). I agree with Will when he says that it befits her character when she tells a story about a female dominating a male, but I personally think Chaucer is being critical of her character, since she clearly has not been able to do what she has been preaching throughout her life.
ReplyDeletejust chilling in here in 2020 reading comments from 11 years ago.......
ReplyDelete