This blog is designed specifically for Hanover High School students in Ms. Piro's early English literature course.
Friday, November 13, 2009
Question of the Week (11/13/09)
How is the element of prophecy illuminated in the first two legends you have read? Use evidence from the text to support your answer. Also, is prophecy an element of today's society? Post and respond by Sunday.
There are generally two types of prophecies. The type of prophecy where something concrete and unchangeable is predicted and the kind where a vague prophecy is made and could be fulfilled in a number of different ways. In "Le Morte D'Arthur" Merlin makes the prophecies. In this text he makes both indirect and direct/concrete prophecies that cannot be altered. This type always begs the question: why would you not sit down and not do anything or flee in an attempt to not have your fate controlled? In the first tale Merlin says "Your child is destined for glory" (p23) which is an example of an open ended prophecy. He also says "I prophecy that Arthur will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well." (p27) Here he gives a clear and decisive outcome. In the tale of Sir Balin Merlin says "On this spot will occur the most desperate battle between the two most ardent lovers of all time Sir Launcelot du Lac and Sir Tristam. But they will not kill each other" (p48) I think that this is a combination of the two types of prophecy. It gives a clear outcome but seems to be far in the future and leave many reasons for the fight possible.
It appears that prophecy will be a central theme of Arthurian legends. Everything that happens triggers one prophecy or another. Merlin makes most of the prophecies, and it seems like he enjoys popping up out of nowhere and dooming some knight to kill his brother, or forecasting the ultimate destruction of an entire kingdom. I thought one of the funniest examples of this was at the end of "The Knight with Two Swords," when Merlin shows up after everyone has already been killed and buried. He inscribes the tomb of Sir Balan and Sir Balin with Balin's name, and then for no apparent reason, he conjures up a cursed bed, which "would drive every sleeper out of his wits, until Sir Lancelot lay on it and broke the spell." (p 56). Then he grabs Sir Balin's tragically cursed sword, and forges a new hilt for it. He makes another prophecy that no man will draw the sword until Sir Lancelot, and he will "kill the man he loves the most with it, and it will be Sir Gawain." (p 56). What it seems like, is that Merlin is just making up prophecies for the purpose of screwing with the knights at Camelot. There is no reason for the bed to be cursed, other than that Merlin thinks it will make a good quest for Sir Lancelot later on. And that broken sword posed no threat to anybody, but now solely through Merlin's actions, Lancelot is cursed and Gawain is doomed to die by the hand of his friend. There is no reason for it. This is what confuses me about the prophecies in the story.
As for modern prophecies, I don't know of any place in the real world that people make infallible predictions about the future, but we still tell stories about prophecies all the time. For example last night I watched the Matrix, which is a movie that centers around a prophecy. In the second Matrix Neo manages to cast off the prophecy though, which is different from the prophecies in the Arthurian legend's, that will always be true no matter what choices you make.
Prophecies seem to play a large roll in Arthurian legends. In Le Morte d'Arthur the prophecies have been made by Merlin. Merlin tends to show up randomly and make prophecies about different people killing each other or breaking a spell. Merlin makes both specific prophecies about certain people and more general prophecies that could come true and a variety of different ways. For example, in the first legend it says "Merlin prophesied that they could be checked only by the presence of the king himself on the battlefield" (pg 24). And sure enough, when King Uther goes out onto the battlefield they win. It also says that the army was inspired by his presence, so was this a real prophesy or just common sense that people would be more likely to fight if their king was there? Another type of prophecy that Merlin makes is ones that are much more general. When King Uther is talking to Merlin about Arthur, Merlin says, "your child is destine for glory" (pg 23). However, he does not say what kind of glory this will be. There are more prophecies made by Merlin in the second legend, but also by the young noble women. She says, "If you keep it you will fight to the death with the man you love the most" (pg 45). Prophecies play a large roll to the characters, both directly and indirectly based on how specific the prophecy is.
A modern prophecy is that the world is going to end on December 21, 2012. This prophecy has a little bit of scientific background but is mostly based on people's beliefs due to the fact that the Mayan calender ends on this day. Another modern prophecy was that all the computers were going to crash on January 1st 2000. People do not know whether this is due to people fixing the computer programs or if it was never going to happen.
"This type always begs the question: why would you not sit down and not do anything or flee in an attempt to not have your fate controlled?"
My response to this would be that people of King Arthur's time simply believed in fate and destiny. They did not try and "cheat fate" they accepted because that was their belief. If someone told you your son was going to kill you, chances are it would happen one way or another (at least it seems to be that way in the legends). But back then they did not have the advanced science so they used fate and destiny to prove why things happen. They did not question whether they were in control of their own fate.
In these tales, prophecy is a very central part of the plots. In fact, without Merlin's many prophecies it would almost seem like the events that happened wouldn't have happened if the prophecies hadn't been told. I noticed this especially in Balin's Tale, I guess just because Merlin appears more often than in Merlin's Tale. Merlin often directly dictates to the characters what they should do, and therefor decides how the story will end up. For example, when Merlin tells King Lot that in a battle that King Lot and King Arthur will have one of them will die, King Lot asks Merlin "What shall I do now? Make a treaty with Arthur, or attack him?" Merlin answers: "Attack him" (49). Merlin doesn't tell King Lot to attack him because he is helping him, but simply because he knows that King Lot is the one who will die, so he knows King Arthur will be in no danger. As Joe said earlier, it seems as though Merlin has fun tricking people with his prophecies. Today, I don't think that we have such a strong connection with fate and stories that teach us about trusting and going along with what is assigned for us in our fate. Because of this, even if an oracle told us about our future, chances are that we wouldn't even believe him or her. There probably still are people that "tell the future" but they aren't taken seriously by most people.
In response to Joe: I also thought Merlin's appearances throughout Balin's Tale were often comical, and I thought in the end when he put the same curse on the same sword for someone else to take out of its sheath was funny, and definitely shows how he uses normal human flaws as a form of entertainment. In general, this tale was pretty funny because many of the things that happened were random and out of the blue. For example when the two brothers find each other right after Balin had caused the death of the two lovers, they go right from rejoicing, to mourning the loss of the dead lovers to talking about challenging King Royns.
Prophecy plays a large role in Arthurian legends. In the first part of Le Morte d'Arthur, Merlin plays a central role for Arthur. He predicts almost every event in Arthur's life. He manages to prophecize about everything; from what to do in battle to who will die and when. One example of this is on page 34, where Merlin says, "So have done! Return to your camp, and reward your men as they deserve. I prophesy that for three years these kings will not trouble you." And lo and behold, for three years the eleven kings do not. I think the fact that Arthur believed every prophecy Merlin made shows how reliable and trusted prophecies were back then. Prophecies continue to play a large role in The Knight with the Two Swords, however, Merlin isn't the only one making the prophecies. On page 45, a young noble woman prophecizes to Sir Balin and says (about the sword he has just won), "If you keep it you will fight to the death with the man you love most." At the end of this part of the tale, Sir Balin fights to the death with his beloved brother, Sir Balan. The fact that Sir Balin doesn't heed the young noblewoman's advice is confusing. In the first tale, Merlin used his prophecies to advise Arthur, and Arthur did everything Merlin told him to. Sir Balin knew the consequences if he didn't listen to the noblewoman, and he paid them with his life. I think that Sir Balin chose not to listen to the noblewoman because he was so excited about the fact that he had won this amazing sword.
As for modern prophecies, I don't really know of many. I also thought of the computer failures that were supposed to happen on January 1st, 2000, but other than that most people don't really believe in prophecies anymore. People still read horoscopes and still go see palm readers, but I think that it's such a small percentage of the population that it can't really be considered as an element of our society.
In the ledgends of Merlin and Sir Balin Merlin doles out prophesies left and right. some examples of prophesies from the first story are, "your child is destine for glory" (p 23.), "merlin prohesised they could be checked only by the presence of the king himself on the battle field" (p. 24), and "I prophecy that arthur will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well" (p.27). an example of the propheseis in the second story include "would drive every sleeper out of his whits until sir lancelot lay on it and broke the spell" (p. 56.)They all turn out to be true, and there were many more.
There are stil prophesies today, although they are generally regarded much less seriously than they seem to have been in the time of King Arthur. For example, we still see the fortuning telling element of prophesis in things such as horoscopes and the psychic friends hotline. The thing about these prophesies, however, is that they are rarely true, especially compared to Merlin's constant accuracy. This lack of accuacy accounts for many's disbelief, but there are people who truely believe in them as many in Arthur's court seem to.
In response to Megan: I like your example of the 2012 prophecy. I hadn't thought that one. I also agree with your response to Nick. I think that people of that time felt that no matter what they did their fate would do with them as it wished. An example of this is in Lost, when Charlie was destine to die, so no matter how many times he was saved, deadly situations kept coming to him in different ways.
The mechanics and explanation of prophesy are not detailed in Le Morte D'Arthur. It seems that this lack indicates that the author assumed both that his audience had an understanding of what prophesy was, and that by mentioning "prophesy", he could reference this understanding. However, although prophesy is not directly explained by the author, it is possible to begin to figure out what the basic understanding was from the events in the story. First of all, the existence of prophesy is not questioned. When Merlin makes a prophesy, his audience does not question whether it is possible for Merlin to know the prophesy, but instead whether Merlin is intentionally deceiving them. The second component of this basic understanding is also illustrated in the example above- when Merlin declares Arthur to be the rightful king (pg. 27), many of his subjects call Merlin a false prophet. A third component of the basic understanding of prophesy shared by Malory's audience is the automatic association of prophesy with magic- Merlin is introduced as a prophet, not a magician, yet his magical ability is associated with the fact that he is a prophet.
Prophesy is the act of making a prediction. This is certainly an important aspect of today's society, and is probably more pertinent today then it was in the time of Malory because there is no magical requirement to make a prediction today. Common modern predictions include weather forecasting, stock forecasting, sports forecasting, polling, environmental modeling, marketing surveys, security/intelligence predictions, and harvest forecasting.
I agree that belief in mystical prophecies such as horoscopes and palm readers is on the decline, yet people definitely still believe in baseless assertions. In fact, public belief in unsupported facts has been rising since the 1960's. The growth of Wikipedia is a testament to this. According to a recent study, people are now more than three times as likely to accept unsourced statements then they were in the sixties, and this number is rising. (See what I did here?)
I don't think that we can discount prophecies in the modern age. Not all prophecies are horoscopes or palm readers. Though people used to believe in prophets such as Merlin we are know our own prophets. Fueled by media and mass comunication we start and perpetuate our own rumors until they become accepted facts of destiny. One think that comes to mid is the idea of a doomsday scenario of swine flu, or the end of the world in 2012
The element of prophecy steadily illuminates both the of the tales that we have read so far in Le Morte D'Arthur. At pretty much every consistent major event in the plot, a prophecy is made. These are generally made by Merlin, who enjoys maneuvering the knights in the tale to do his bidding. An example of this is on page 49, when King Lot openly exclaims "You have tricked me, Merlin, What shall I do now?" Merlin responds by telling King Lot to attack Arthur, for he thinks that King Lot must die. While many of these prophecies move the story along logically, I find that many of them seem to be there on whims of Merlin. An example of this is on page 56 when Merlin shows up and randomly makes an enchanted bed and forms a prophecy; as if it is all fun and games. However, I feel like the author is purposefully having Merlin make a bunch of silly predictions so that then it is clear when an important prophecy comes up. I thought one of the most important prophecies was made by the noblewoman, when she warns Sir Balin that he will have to fight the person he loves most if he takes the sword (p. 45) The fact that this is made by a person either than Merlin is the hint.
In response to the modern prophecies debate, I find that it is really just about how you look at things and where your belief systems lie. I am not religious, but I bet it is safe to say that if you believe in God then you will be more willing to believe modern day prophecies. These prophecies exist on a huge scale, from believing that the world will end in 2012 to believing you will fail a math test tomorrow because you didn't study enough. Back in the day of King Arthur, people relied on religion more and they based their lives on believing in things like prophecies. This is why Merlin is such a powerful figure. One can prove this by the reference to Jesus at the end of the Balin tale (p. 53). The fact three kingdoms would lie in waste for 12 years because of the spear that piereced Jesus is a very strong statement.
The element of prophecy is used many times in the first two legends, usually involving Merlin, who tells King Arthur many things that will happen in the future. Merlin's talent is first displayed when he tells King Uther that "your child is destined for glory" (pg. 23). But his prophecies are not all optimistic like this one. He tells Arthur that "your kingdom will fall to the child (Sir Modred) she (Margawse) bears you" (pg. 38). This prompts Arthur to set all babies born on May Day adrift on a ship, a plan which doesn't work, showing how he believes Merlin's prophecies but is powerless to change them. Also, Merlin uses his prophecies to help Arthur strategically in his war against the rebellious kings. Merlin goes to the kings, and fortells that "he (Arthur) will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well" (pg. 27). I think this is an attempt to make the kings surrender through their superstitious beliefs in Merlin's legendary and supernatural abilities. He also gives Arthur sage advice in battle, that always seems to turn the tide of the fight, which is another example of how Merlin puts his prophetic skills to practical use. I think there is an element of prophecy in today's society. Many religions have prophecies about the future and the end of the world, and a large number of people are still superstitious. A popular modern prophecy is the world will end on December 21, 2012. It is based on the fact that the Mayan's ancient calendar ends on that day, and that many astrological phenomena are set to occur then, such as the largest solar maximum in human history, and the Earth lining up with the center of the Milky Way galaxy. This past weekend I saw the epic disaster movie 2012, which offers a cinematic vision of the end of the world in 2012, complete with massive worldwide earthquakes and tsunamis, and Yellowstone becoming a supervolcano.
In response to Sasha: I remember when everyone was freaking out about the computers crashing in 2000, like you described. I didn't really understand what the fuss was about, especially when my parents stocked up on bottled water in the basement just in case something happened. I really still don't understand why everyone was so scared about something so ridiculous and unlikely.
It seems nearly every choice a character makes in the first two legends has some prophetic effect. Mysterious characters such as Merlin, or various noblewoman weave themselves in and out of the lives of the main characters, while also laying down choices for the main characters to make. The choices have profound meaning; however, and have much to do with their futures. Some prophecies are simply given, as Merlin bluntly points out King Uther's destiny. He appears in the first few pages of “Le Morte d'Arthur” telling him his plan (“tonight you will appear in the likeness of her husband”). Prophecies that are similar to games of chance are seen commonly throughout “Balin, or the the knight with two swords”. Here we see a noblewomen approach the Knights of the Round table, with her secret hidden agenda later described (“the young noblewoman is utterly evil” 46), nevertheless tricks the knights and tells King Arthur of Sir Balin's fate (“this knight will become famous before he dies” 45). Sir Balin makes abrupt choices, such as taking a sword after being told his fate from the young noblewoman (“If you keep it, you will fight to the death with the man you love most” 45), or trudging forward in the face of death being made aware by a mysterious old man (“Sir Balin turn back! You will overreach yourself” 55). There are various ways of perceiving these prophecies. Are they master plans? Or are they innocent warning signs? I think they can be both. The noblewoman did have a plan hatched up; conversely, the other common prophet, Merlin, warns King Arthur of her sorry plans. I think that most of what we consider “prophecy” is scientific warnings, calculations pointing in certain directions. However, a clear example of prophecy is that behind the words of a politician, especially during their campaign trail. They make numerous promises to the people, offering them the voting choice to determine the foretold outcomes. In response to Clark, I don't exactly agree with how you described Merlin's prophecies. It is true, that he predicts many random things. However, his messages to Arthur create a basis for the whole story thus far. In retrospect, he is the one deciding the what takes place in these humans lives.
Prophecy is one of the elements that most drives the plots in both tales. For example, Merlin predicts in his tale that Arthur's child is "destined for glory", and that Arthur will "win homage, not only from you, but from the monarchs in many other lands as well". Merlin also says that the only thing that will turn Uther's battle around in "the presence of the king himself on the battlefield", and as soon as Uther appeared, the battle turned around in his favor. Also, in Balin's Tale, Merlin states that if he keeps the sword he has just won, he "will fight to the death the man [he] loves most", and in the end of the tale he kills his brother, Sir Balan.
I think that prophecy isn't really a driving factor in modern life, but people do pay attention it it (ex the Mayan (I think) calender ending in 2012). Prophesy is also a big deal in religions, both old, such as Christianity, and modern, like the Ghost Dance.
In response to Aaron (mostly) and the rest of the class: I think it's interesting that many of us took "prophesy" to mean something mystical and/or religious, but Aaron mentioned real things, such as the weather and crops. I think that in the older days, forecasting things like the weather would have been grounds for magic. It's cool how average we think things like that are now.
Prophecy plays a huge role in Arthurian legends. Merlin seems to be the person who makes all the prophecies, mostly for fun or just so they'll have quests. None of them really seem to be good prophecies either, so far they all seem pretty morbid. They don't really have much of a point other than to give the knights quests. They also accept all prophecies without question and they never doubt that he is right. The way people look at prophecy has changed dramatically. There is still a degree of belief in them, but back then people believed that any prophecy made was the absolute truth. They also believed more in fate and that people could do nothing to change their fate. God would decide what would happen and that was final.
In response to Nick: I agree, I think prophecies still exist, but the amount of people and the degree to which people believe in them has decreased substantially. The best example of this is how people believe the world will end in 2012.
Throughout the two tales we have read so far, almost ever action that a character has partaken in was pre determined or pre ordained. Prophecy seems to play a large role in the Arthurian legends, judging by what we have read thus far. The main person who makes prophecies throughout the first tale is Merlin. MOst of his prophecies are about the downfall of a certain person, and they almost always involve bloodshed of some kind. One prohecy that Merlin gives is when he is talking to King Uther on page 23, he says "your son is destined for glory "(23) This is one of Merlins more vague prophecies but i belive it will turn out to be true.
Although many people have already made this point, one of the most prevelant propheicies of our time is that the world will come to an end in 2010. This outlandish predection is based merely on the fact that the Mayan calender ends in 2012. Although this may seem ridiculous many people believe it to be true.
Another famous prohpesizer that is long since dead yet many people belive that his prophecies will carry out, is Nostradamus. He was a french apothecary and seer who claimed he could fortell the future. One of his many predictions was that an enemy of North America will devestatingly attack it. Many people believe that that prediction was carried out by the hijackers who attacked the world trade centers. Although many of these far fetched predictions seem like hog wash to most people, there are those who belive that everything we do is pre ordained.
In response to Aaron: I also really liked how you gave many examples of modern day prophecies, such as weather or sports or polling. I loke that you made the point about weathermen merely making predictions on what the weather could be. good job.
I believe (as well as the rest of the class it would seem) that prophecy plays a very big role in the stories that we have read. Without these prophecies I also think that the tales would be a little less creative and boring. Merlin is the obvious master of prophecy. He is able to tell that one day Arthur will become a great leader. He is also able to tell that certain characters will die and he knows exactly who will kill them. Merlin in a way leads Arthur and without him Arthur would not be the leader that he was able to become. Even though Merlin helps Arthur and often guides him in the right direction, he also gives him bad news and tells him that Mordred will one day be the "fall" of Arthur's kingdom and his reign as king.
In response to Aaron (whom everyone has already responded to because his relation to the modern world is very good) i think that almost everyone takes the weather person for granted because most people think, "Wow the weather man is always wrong" but if you were able to show people hundreds of years ago the prediction we can make now they would be very simply flabbergasted. I also think that the new movie 2012 is an excellent example of old school prophecy that is now a modern "dilemma" that some people think we face.
There are generally two types of prophecies. The type of prophecy where something concrete and unchangeable is predicted and the kind where a vague prophecy is made and could be fulfilled in a number of different ways. In "Le Morte D'Arthur" Merlin makes the prophecies. In this text he makes both indirect and direct/concrete prophecies that cannot be altered. This type always begs the question: why would you not sit down and not do anything or flee in an attempt to not have your fate controlled? In the first tale Merlin says "Your child is destined for glory" (p23) which is an example of an open ended prophecy. He also says "I prophecy that Arthur will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well." (p27) Here he gives a clear and decisive outcome. In the tale of Sir Balin Merlin says "On this spot will occur the most desperate battle between the two most ardent lovers of all time Sir Launcelot du Lac and Sir Tristam. But they will not kill each other" (p48) I think that this is a combination of the two types of prophecy. It gives a clear outcome but seems to be far in the future and leave many reasons for the fight possible.
ReplyDeleteIt appears that prophecy will be a central theme of Arthurian legends. Everything that happens triggers one prophecy or another. Merlin makes most of the prophecies, and it seems like he enjoys popping up out of nowhere and dooming some knight to kill his brother, or forecasting the ultimate destruction of an entire kingdom. I thought one of the funniest examples of this was at the end of "The Knight with Two Swords," when Merlin shows up after everyone has already been killed and buried. He inscribes the tomb of Sir Balan and Sir Balin with Balin's name, and then for no apparent reason, he conjures up a cursed bed, which "would drive every sleeper out of his wits, until Sir Lancelot lay on it and broke the spell." (p 56). Then he grabs Sir Balin's tragically cursed sword, and forges a new hilt for it. He makes another prophecy that no man will draw the sword until Sir Lancelot, and he will "kill the man he loves the most with it, and it will be Sir Gawain." (p 56). What it seems like, is that Merlin is just making up prophecies for the purpose of screwing with the knights at Camelot. There is no reason for the bed to be cursed, other than that Merlin thinks it will make a good quest for Sir Lancelot later on. And that broken sword posed no threat to anybody, but now solely through Merlin's actions, Lancelot is cursed and Gawain is doomed to die by the hand of his friend. There is no reason for it. This is what confuses me about the prophecies in the story.
ReplyDeleteAs for modern prophecies, I don't know of any place in the real world that people make infallible predictions about the future, but we still tell stories about prophecies all the time. For example last night I watched the Matrix, which is a movie that centers around a prophecy. In the second Matrix Neo manages to cast off the prophecy though, which is different from the prophecies in the Arthurian legend's, that will always be true no matter what choices you make.
Prophecies seem to play a large roll in Arthurian legends. In Le Morte d'Arthur the prophecies have been made by Merlin. Merlin tends to show up randomly and make prophecies about different people killing each other or breaking a spell. Merlin makes both specific prophecies about certain people and more general prophecies that could come true and a variety of different ways. For example, in the first legend it says "Merlin prophesied that they could be checked only by the presence of the king himself on the battlefield" (pg 24). And sure enough, when King Uther goes out onto the battlefield they win. It also says that the army was inspired by his presence, so was this a real prophesy or just common sense that people would be more likely to fight if their king was there? Another type of prophecy that Merlin makes is ones that are much more general. When King Uther is talking to Merlin about Arthur, Merlin says, "your child is destine for glory" (pg 23). However, he does not say what kind of glory this will be. There are more prophecies made by Merlin in the second legend, but also by the young noble women. She says, "If you keep it you will fight to the death with the man you love the most" (pg 45). Prophecies play a large roll to the characters, both directly and indirectly based on how specific the prophecy is.
ReplyDeleteA modern prophecy is that the world is going to end on December 21, 2012. This prophecy has a little bit of scientific background but is mostly based on people's beliefs due to the fact that the Mayan calender ends on this day. Another modern prophecy was that all the computers were going to crash on January 1st 2000. People do not know whether this is due to people fixing the computer programs or if it was never going to happen.
In response to Nick:
ReplyDelete"This type always begs the question: why would you not sit down and not do anything or flee in an attempt to not have your fate controlled?"
My response to this would be that people of King Arthur's time simply believed in fate and destiny. They did not try and "cheat fate" they accepted because that was their belief. If someone told you your son was going to kill you, chances are it would happen one way or another (at least it seems to be that way in the legends). But back then they did not have the advanced science so they used fate and destiny to prove why things happen. They did not question whether they were in control of their own fate.
In these tales, prophecy is a very central part of the plots. In fact, without Merlin's many prophecies it would almost seem like the events that happened wouldn't have happened if the prophecies hadn't been told. I noticed this especially in Balin's Tale, I guess just because Merlin appears more often than in Merlin's Tale. Merlin often directly dictates to the characters what they should do, and therefor decides how the story will end up. For example, when Merlin tells King Lot that in a battle that King Lot and King Arthur will have one of them will die, King Lot asks Merlin "What shall I do now? Make a treaty with Arthur, or attack him?" Merlin answers: "Attack him" (49). Merlin doesn't tell King Lot to attack him because he is helping him, but simply because he knows that King Lot is the one who will die, so he knows King Arthur will be in no danger. As Joe said earlier, it seems as though Merlin has fun tricking people with his prophecies.
ReplyDeleteToday, I don't think that we have such a strong connection with fate and stories that teach us about trusting and going along with what is assigned for us in our fate. Because of this, even if an oracle told us about our future, chances are that we wouldn't even believe him or her. There probably still are people that "tell the future" but they aren't taken seriously by most people.
In response to Joe:
I also thought Merlin's appearances throughout Balin's Tale were often comical, and I thought in the end when he put the same curse on the same sword for someone else to take out of its sheath was funny, and definitely shows how he uses normal human flaws as a form of entertainment. In general, this tale was pretty funny because many of the things that happened were random and out of the blue. For example when the two brothers find each other right after Balin had caused the death of the two lovers, they go right from rejoicing, to mourning the loss of the dead lovers to talking about challenging King Royns.
Prophecy plays a large role in Arthurian legends. In the first part of Le Morte d'Arthur, Merlin plays a central role for Arthur. He predicts almost every event in Arthur's life. He manages to prophecize about everything; from what to do in battle to who will die and when. One example of this is on page 34, where Merlin says, "So have done! Return to your camp, and reward your men as they deserve. I prophesy that for three years these kings will not trouble you." And lo and behold, for three years the eleven kings do not. I think the fact that Arthur believed every prophecy Merlin made shows how reliable and trusted prophecies were back then. Prophecies continue to play a large role in The Knight with the Two Swords, however, Merlin isn't the only one making the prophecies. On page 45, a young noble woman prophecizes to Sir Balin and says (about the sword he has just won), "If you keep it you will fight to the death with the man you love most." At the end of this part of the tale, Sir Balin fights to the death with his beloved brother, Sir Balan. The fact that Sir Balin doesn't heed the young noblewoman's advice is confusing. In the first tale, Merlin used his prophecies to advise Arthur, and Arthur did everything Merlin told him to. Sir Balin knew the consequences if he didn't listen to the noblewoman, and he paid them with his life. I think that Sir Balin chose not to listen to the noblewoman because he was so excited about the fact that he had won this amazing sword.
ReplyDeleteAs for modern prophecies, I don't really know of many. I also thought of the computer failures that were supposed to happen on January 1st, 2000, but other than that most people don't really believe in prophecies anymore. People still read horoscopes and still go see palm readers, but I think that it's such a small percentage of the population that it can't really be considered as an element of our society.
In the ledgends of Merlin and Sir Balin Merlin doles out prophesies left and right. some examples of prophesies from the first story are, "your child is destine for glory" (p 23.), "merlin prohesised they could be checked only by the presence of the king himself on the battle field" (p. 24), and "I prophecy that arthur will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well" (p.27). an example of the propheseis in the second story include "would drive every sleeper out of his whits until sir lancelot lay on it and broke the spell" (p. 56.)They all turn out to be true, and there were many more.
ReplyDeleteThere are stil prophesies today, although they are generally regarded much less seriously than they seem to have been in the time of King Arthur. For example, we still see the fortuning telling element of prophesis in things such as horoscopes and the psychic friends hotline. The thing about these prophesies, however, is that they are rarely true, especially compared to Merlin's constant accuracy. This lack of accuacy accounts for many's disbelief, but there are people who truely believe in them as many in Arthur's court seem to.
In response to Megan:
ReplyDeleteI like your example of the 2012 prophecy. I hadn't thought that one. I also agree with your response to Nick. I think that people of that time felt that no matter what they did their fate would do with them as it wished. An example of this is in Lost, when Charlie was destine to die, so no matter how many times he was saved, deadly situations kept coming to him in different ways.
sorry both my comments are probably riddled with typoes-- in on the most frusterating keyboard in the world.
ReplyDeleteThe mechanics and explanation of prophesy are not detailed in Le Morte D'Arthur. It seems that this lack indicates that the author assumed both that his audience had an understanding of what prophesy was, and that by mentioning "prophesy", he could reference this understanding. However, although prophesy is not directly explained by the author, it is possible to begin to figure out what the basic understanding was from the events in the story. First of all, the existence of prophesy is not questioned. When Merlin makes a prophesy, his audience does not question whether it is possible for Merlin to know the prophesy, but instead whether Merlin is intentionally deceiving them. The second component of this basic understanding is also illustrated in the example above- when Merlin declares Arthur to be the rightful king (pg. 27), many of his subjects call Merlin a false prophet. A third component of the basic understanding of prophesy shared by Malory's audience is the automatic association of prophesy with magic- Merlin is introduced as a prophet, not a magician, yet his magical ability is associated with the fact that he is a prophet.
ReplyDeleteProphesy is the act of making a prediction. This is certainly an important aspect of today's society, and is probably more pertinent today then it was in the time of Malory because there is no magical requirement to make a prediction today. Common modern predictions include weather forecasting, stock forecasting, sports forecasting, polling, environmental modeling, marketing surveys, security/intelligence predictions, and harvest forecasting.
In response to Sasha,
ReplyDeleteI agree that belief in mystical prophecies such as horoscopes and palm readers is on the decline, yet people definitely still believe in baseless assertions. In fact, public belief in unsupported facts has been rising since the 1960's. The growth of Wikipedia is a testament to this. According to a recent study, people are now more than three times as likely to accept unsourced statements then they were in the sixties, and this number is rising. (See what I did here?)
In response to Sasha:
ReplyDeleteI don't think that we can discount prophecies in the modern age. Not all prophecies are horoscopes or palm readers. Though people used to believe in prophets such as Merlin we are know our own prophets. Fueled by media and mass comunication we start and perpetuate our own rumors until they become accepted facts of destiny. One think that comes to mid is the idea of a doomsday scenario of swine flu, or the end of the world in 2012
The element of prophecy steadily illuminates both the of the tales that we have read so far in Le Morte D'Arthur. At pretty much every consistent major event in the plot, a prophecy is made. These are generally made by Merlin, who enjoys maneuvering the knights in the tale to do his bidding. An example of this is on page 49, when King Lot openly exclaims "You have tricked me, Merlin, What shall I do now?" Merlin responds by telling King Lot to attack Arthur, for he thinks that King Lot must die. While many of these prophecies move the story along logically, I find that many of them seem to be there on whims of Merlin. An example of this is on page 56 when Merlin shows up and randomly makes an enchanted bed and forms a prophecy; as if it is all fun and games. However, I feel like the author is purposefully having Merlin make a bunch of silly predictions so that then it is clear when an important prophecy comes up. I thought one of the most important prophecies was made by the noblewoman, when she warns Sir Balin that he will have to fight the person he loves most if he takes the sword (p. 45) The fact that this is made by a person either than Merlin is the hint.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the modern prophecies debate, I find that it is really just about how you look at things and where your belief systems lie. I am not religious, but I bet it is safe to say that if you believe in God then you will be more willing to believe modern day prophecies. These prophecies exist on a huge scale, from believing that the world will end in 2012 to believing you will fail a math test tomorrow because you didn't study enough. Back in the day of King Arthur, people relied on religion more and they based their lives on believing in things like prophecies. This is why Merlin is such a powerful figure. One can prove this by the reference to Jesus at the end of the Balin tale (p. 53). The fact three kingdoms would lie in waste for 12 years because of the spear that piereced Jesus is a very strong statement.
The element of prophecy is used many times in the first two legends, usually involving Merlin, who tells King Arthur many things that will happen in the future. Merlin's talent is first displayed when he tells King Uther that "your child is destined for glory" (pg. 23). But his prophecies are not all optimistic like this one. He tells Arthur that "your kingdom will fall to the child (Sir Modred) she (Margawse) bears you" (pg. 38). This prompts Arthur to set all babies born on May Day adrift on a ship, a plan which doesn't work, showing how he believes Merlin's prophecies but is powerless to change them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Merlin uses his prophecies to help Arthur strategically in his war against the rebellious kings. Merlin goes to the kings, and fortells that "he (Arthur) will win homage, not only from you, but from monarchs in many other lands as well" (pg. 27). I think this is an attempt to make the kings surrender through their superstitious beliefs in Merlin's legendary and supernatural abilities. He also gives Arthur sage advice in battle, that always seems to turn the tide of the fight, which is another example of how Merlin puts his prophetic skills to practical use.
I think there is an element of prophecy in today's society. Many religions have prophecies about the future and the end of the world, and a large number of people are still superstitious. A popular modern prophecy is the world will end on December 21, 2012. It is based on the fact that the Mayan's ancient calendar ends on that day, and that many astrological phenomena are set to occur then, such as the largest solar maximum in human history, and the Earth lining up with the center of the Milky Way galaxy. This past weekend I saw the epic disaster movie 2012, which offers a cinematic vision of the end of the world in 2012, complete with massive worldwide earthquakes and tsunamis, and Yellowstone becoming a supervolcano.
In response to Sasha:
I remember when everyone was freaking out about the computers crashing in 2000, like you described. I didn't really understand what the fuss was about, especially when my parents stocked up on bottled water in the basement just in case something happened. I really still don't understand why everyone was so scared about something so ridiculous and unlikely.
It seems nearly every choice a character makes in the first two legends has some prophetic effect. Mysterious characters such as Merlin, or various noblewoman weave themselves in and out of the lives of the main characters, while also laying down choices for the main characters to make. The choices have profound meaning; however, and have much to do with their futures. Some prophecies are simply given, as Merlin bluntly points out King Uther's destiny. He appears in the first few pages of “Le Morte d'Arthur” telling him his plan (“tonight you will appear in the likeness of her husband”). Prophecies that are similar to games of chance are seen commonly throughout “Balin, or the the knight with two swords”. Here we see a noblewomen approach the Knights of the Round table, with her secret hidden agenda later described (“the young noblewoman is utterly evil” 46), nevertheless tricks the knights and tells King Arthur of Sir Balin's fate (“this knight will become famous before he dies” 45). Sir Balin makes abrupt choices, such as taking a sword after being told his fate from the young noblewoman (“If you keep it, you will fight to the death with the man you love most” 45), or trudging forward in the face of death being made aware by a mysterious old man (“Sir Balin turn back! You will overreach yourself” 55). There are various ways of perceiving these prophecies. Are they master plans? Or are they innocent warning signs? I think they can be both. The noblewoman did have a plan hatched up; conversely, the other common prophet, Merlin, warns King Arthur of her sorry plans. I think that most of what we consider “prophecy” is scientific warnings, calculations pointing in certain directions. However, a clear example of prophecy is that behind the words of a politician, especially during their campaign trail. They make numerous promises to the people, offering them the voting choice to determine the foretold outcomes. In response to Clark, I don't exactly agree with how you described Merlin's prophecies. It is true, that he predicts many random things. However, his messages to Arthur create a basis for the whole story thus far. In retrospect, he is the one deciding the what takes place in these humans lives.
ReplyDeleteProphecy is one of the elements that most drives the plots in both tales. For example, Merlin predicts in his tale that Arthur's child is "destined for glory", and that Arthur will "win homage, not only from you, but from the monarchs in many other lands as well". Merlin also says that the only thing that will turn Uther's battle around in "the presence of the king himself on the battlefield", and as soon as Uther appeared, the battle turned around in his favor. Also, in Balin's Tale, Merlin states that if he keeps the sword he has just won, he "will fight to the death the man [he] loves most", and in the end of the tale he kills his brother, Sir Balan.
ReplyDeleteI think that prophecy isn't really a driving factor in modern life, but people do pay attention it it (ex the Mayan (I think) calender ending in 2012). Prophesy is also a big deal in religions, both old, such as Christianity, and modern, like the Ghost Dance.
In response to Aaron (mostly) and the rest of the class:
ReplyDeleteI think it's interesting that many of us took "prophesy" to mean something mystical and/or religious, but Aaron mentioned real things, such as the weather and crops. I think that in the older days, forecasting things like the weather would have been grounds for magic. It's cool how average we think things like that are now.
Prophecy plays a huge role in Arthurian legends. Merlin seems to be the person who makes all the prophecies, mostly for fun or just so they'll have quests. None of them really seem to be good prophecies either, so far they all seem pretty morbid. They don't really have much of a point other than to give the knights quests. They also accept all prophecies without question and they never doubt that he is right. The way people look at prophecy has changed dramatically. There is still a degree of belief in them, but back then people believed that any prophecy made was the absolute truth. They also believed more in fate and that people could do nothing to change their fate. God would decide what would happen and that was final.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Nick:
I agree, I think prophecies still exist, but the amount of people and the degree to which people believe in them has decreased substantially. The best example of this is how people believe the world will end in 2012.
Throughout the two tales we have read so far, almost ever action that a character has partaken in was pre determined or pre ordained. Prophecy seems to play a large role in the Arthurian legends, judging by what we have read thus far. The main person who makes prophecies throughout the first tale is Merlin. MOst of his prophecies are about the downfall of a certain person, and they almost always involve bloodshed of some kind. One prohecy that Merlin gives is when he is talking to King Uther on page 23, he says "your son is destined for glory "(23) This is one of Merlins more vague prophecies but i belive it will turn out to be true.
ReplyDeleteAlthough many people have already made this point, one of the most prevelant propheicies of our time is that the world will come to an end in 2010. This outlandish predection is based merely on the fact that the Mayan calender ends in 2012. Although this may seem ridiculous many people believe it to be true.
Another famous prohpesizer that is long since dead yet many people belive that his prophecies will carry out, is Nostradamus. He was a french apothecary and seer who claimed he could fortell the future. One of his many predictions was that an enemy of North America will devestatingly attack it. Many people believe that that prediction was carried out by the hijackers who attacked the world trade centers. Although many of these far fetched predictions seem like hog wash to most people, there are those who belive that everything we do is pre ordained.
In response to Aaron: I also really liked how you gave many examples of modern day prophecies, such as weather or sports or polling. I loke that you made the point about weathermen merely making predictions on what the weather could be. good job.
I believe (as well as the rest of the class it would seem) that prophecy plays a very big role in the stories that we have read. Without these prophecies I also think that the tales would be a little less creative and boring. Merlin is the obvious master of prophecy. He is able to tell that one day Arthur will become a great leader. He is also able to tell that certain characters will die and he knows exactly who will kill them. Merlin in a way leads Arthur and without him Arthur would not be the leader that he was able to become. Even though Merlin helps Arthur and often guides him in the right direction, he also gives him bad news and tells him that Mordred will one day be the "fall" of Arthur's kingdom and his reign as king.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Aaron (whom everyone has already responded to because his relation to the modern world is very good) i think that almost everyone takes the weather person for granted because most people think, "Wow the weather man is always wrong" but if you were able to show people hundreds of years ago the prediction we can make now they would be very simply flabbergasted. I also think that the new movie 2012 is an excellent example of old school prophecy that is now a modern "dilemma" that some people think we face.
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